Curse

Ensign · Aug 15, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Coldfires are easy. Terrorwebs require specialized builds that are a good deal slower against everything else, and Obsidian Behemoths...well, I can't say I've figured out how to do those yet.

Prot Bond is stupid. Just making it 2 energy at 17 wouldn't stop the build, it would just stop all the really bad ones - those of us with an energy engine wouldn't care. 3? That'd do it. I don't know what needs to be done, really. It's just problematic in PvE, but boy is it ever problematic...

Peace,
-CxE

Peace,
-CxE

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

It is as easy as it looks, and for most much easier and more efficient than doing it with a normal team. People failing this setup either need to get the hang of it first, or just need to get the hang of the game in the first place. Not only that, this isn't a setup that functions for one or two specific places, this is a setup that works for most places bar a few.

AeroLion is entirely correct about healing vs. damage, but that balance is tailored between equal parties, i.e. PvP. In PvE, UW specifically, you face multiple monsters many levels above you (giving them 'unnaturally' strong attacks and defenses), so the healing > damage balance need not necessarily apply anymore.

Protective bond is a special case. PvE lacks the diversity that you face in PvP: you know exactly what you can expect, so a specialized setup like the protective bond monk is much more viable since you can just avoid what your build is weak against. Considering the protective bond setup is specialized against brute force, and considering 90% of PvE consists of enemies trying to use unnaturally high damage, manpower or other methods of brute force to bring you down, it becomes an incredibly successful setup for PvE, making all other builds simply pale in comparisment as far as surviveability and versatility is concerned.

An already shallow environment becomes more shallow, and although a lot of people won't care for this because they will gladly use any means to speed up whichever repetitive process they partake in, I feel it simply hurts the game.

Running this build in non-random arena PvP will quickly show that it most certainly isn't overpowered in PvP, far from it - usefulness of Protective Bond as a standalone skill aside, once it gets removed by an opponent you're left with a pathetically feeble monk that will drop dead in one or two hits. Nobody in their right mind will use protective bond with artificially low health in competitive PvP, that's why I think a rebalancing of protective bond addressing the artificially low health exploit is in order.

The suggestion has been made in a couple of other places, but if superior runes and handheld items are not taken into account when calculating the maximum % of damage per hit (for both protective bond and protective spirit), this type of abuse would be impossible, without having any noticeable side-effect on the usefulness of the skill in PvP.

AeroLion · Aug 15, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

The suggestion has been made in a couple of other places, but if superior runes and handheld items are not taken into account when calculating the maximum % of damage per hit (for both protective bond and protective spirit), this type of abuse would be impossible, without having any noticeable side-effect on the usefulness of the skill in PvP.

The thing is that still won't stop the so-called abuse. Yes, it'll stop UW soloing but it won't stop it anywhere else as it is easy to rack up a death penalty to drop your health where p.spirit and p.bond will still make a huge difference with or without runes in the equation. As you said, in PVP this rarely matters. Also, in PVE, this also rarely matters since mobs that don't come with some sort of counter to a 105 build are few and far between. Whether that be degen or enchant removal, mobs that don't have either are few and far between.

My initial reply was due to me thinking that monks as a whole were under attack for the healing > damage thing.

What the solution may be, I have no idea. I really think the instances of abuse are so specific that, in the overall scheme of balancing, it doesn't matter.

DarkWasp · Aug 15, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

they love natures renewal, use it to restore your fun in the game

Hahaha! Ooh man! That would be a great april fools joke! Go with an invci-monk and drop one of those!

Great fun. I would be laughing for a half-hour if I ever did that.

Skylancer16 · Aug 15, 2005, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

the 105 smiters are obsolite. long live the 55 smiter

and no they can't solo the entire UW i don't care what you say. it is impossible to kill those cold drakes with just 1 smiter. they have aura of restore and maelstrom.

for the majority yes they can solo most of it and it doesn't matter you'll spend so much time in there finding ecto when you could have made much more money else where and just bought them. it takes less time

I have a 55 smiting monk and i can kill colds, thier just a pain with all the interrupts.

TideSwayer · Aug 15, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylancer16

I have a 55 smiting monk and i can kill colds, thier just a pain with all the interrupts.

Yeah, the coldfires interrupt a lot, but they are also very slow creatures so it's easy to avoid any interrupts at all if you play a bit "stealthy". When it comes time to cast a spell, do a quick run-around to their backside and immediately cast the spell. You will not only run out of the way of their maelstroms and shard storms, but the coldfires won't be able to turn around to face you and get another interrupt off in time for any decent 105 skillbar spell (read: something that fits the build - a quick-firer) to go off. Just keep running to their backs and casting whenever the need arises.

Shield of Judgment/Balth's Aura/Blessed Signet dominate colds quickly doing this. (I use miteethor's v3.0 skillset.) If you can manage to keep a few smite crawlers around until you pick off a cold or two, energy regen won't be a problem.

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

AeroLion: it will stop most of the abuse I think, even though with max death penalty a character could get to around 200 max health, the energy reserve also takes a hit which reduces effectivity. Ofcourse disregarding death penalty on top of runes and handhelds would be a more solid solution, and probably not too intrusive either - capping the minimum to which bond and spirit can reduce to 20 and 40 per hit respectively would also take care of most business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

Also, in PVE, this also rarely matters since mobs that don't come with some sort of counter to a 105 build are few and far between. Whether that be degen or enchant removal, mobs that don't have either are few and far between.

But it takes severe degen and enchantment removal to put a stop to this, not just the incidental removal (one mesmer removing your top enchantment, then being harmless for 20 seconds), non-stacking degen (five rangers all poisoning you) or gradual removal (five necromancers each neatly taking turns using Chilblains on you, allowing you to reapply your chaff between each of their casts) most of PvE has. I put down 90% and I think that percentage is actually still too low. Ofcourse this percentage isn't accurate for people with little actual gaming experience, but it stands as potential versatility. That's why I don't believe this instance of abuse can be dismissed as 'very specific', specialistic maybe, but the specialization is PvE.

killer toast · Aug 15, 2005, 02:44 AM // 02:44

I got a 55 monk to and im glab because on my warrior if I try to do uw I just end up getting grouped with dumbasses going around aggroing everything they can
plus if you guys had 55 monks you wouldnt have such a problem with them

AeroLion · Aug 15, 2005, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Silmor, let me first thank you for your well reasoned reply. It's remarkably refreshing and appreciated.

Capping the minimum to which bond and spirit can reduce, I think will prove to be the ultimate solution if it's proven both skills are too outside of balance. I, personally, don't think either are imbalanced in PVE yet, but I can see and respect where you're coming from.

Re: severe degen and enchant removal
I think it's very rarely that severe degen and echant removal don't occur in PVE. Let's look at Jade Sacarabs who will always use Chiblains as long as they can. Seeing as they come in groups on, at least, 3 up to 7 at a time, they will usually destroy an enchantment heavy build. Unless, of course, you're running an E/Mo that's specifically geared toward enchant maintenance. Stone Summit and Charr will try enchantment removal before all else. We also have moss scarabs that will vampiric touch, among other things, that will bypass p. bond. Also, there are a lot of enemies in the game that will use degen. The arcanists outside Rankor, spiders in Maguuma, Storm Kin in the Desert, etc.

I understand where you're coming from. I just don't know if I'm willing to forego the damage mitigation of the protection line to stopping farmers.

Moltov joss · Aug 15, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

they aren't immune to defeat. 1 shatter enchantment and its game over and you cannot be ressed.

not our fault they put areas with no enchantment removal. that's the real exploit not the build. there are lots of areas w/o enchant removal.

It would take at least 3 shatter enchantmens to effectivly kill a 105/55 invinci monk.
I always run into a group in fow that has mesmers. I use healing breeze and zelots fire as fodder. Shatter hits and i only lose my breeze, recast and im fine. Simple. Any smart farmer knows you cast your protective bond first.This way it has almost no chance of getting stripped. Only NR or Rend would be effective enough to kill a 105/55, or high dot for that matter in a pve setting.

twicky_kid · Aug 15, 2005, 04:32 AM // 04:32

again its not really an exploit in the skills. there is no glitch it was programmed to be this way. the only exploit is the areas because they cannot effectivly remove enchantments. take a 105 or 55 into random areas and gvg. you won't live long against a mes or 2 seconday.

it is only pve's lack of removal that is the problem.

Sereng Amaranth · Aug 15, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

...the second only effects the people using the changed skills buts possibly causes an inbalance somewhere else.

I think changing the value of that certain skill when Protection is at 17 would fix it. Or am I misunderstanding the build? (I also forgot the name of the skill since I haven't jumped on the bandwagon of MOW farming)

MaglorD · Aug 15, 2005, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Maybe they should alter protective bond or spirit to be a max absolute damage reducer rather than 5 or 10% damage of target's max life?

Will that help?

goku19123 · Aug 15, 2005, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I don't understand those who ask for nerfs because of builds used in PvE. If someone has the ingenuity to come up with a build, like the 55 smiter, good for him/her. PvE is boring anyway...anything that makes it go faster is god-sent.

Protheus · Aug 15, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

All very good point - but still I like to be part of a team that puts in effort for the drop - not just stand by and watch someone else do the work and pickup the items or xp... if I did then why play the game at alll.. just logon - go in a group that goes teh UW and let the Inv monk do the work while you clean the house in the mean time or go shopping !!
And yes we can kill the invinci monk with shatter enchantment - but why kill a fellow team mate when you are exploring the UW or fissure ?? In PvE you are suppose to work together..

I now only play in groups that have no invinci monkin them as I find the gameplay and tactics much much better. You have no idea what you can come up to kill the foes quick and without any loss

Age · Aug 15, 2005, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I read on GWOnline there won't be any nerfing of this build.

Sanji · Aug 15, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

I don't understand those who ask for nerfs because of builds used in PvE. If someone has the ingenuity to come up with a build, like the 55 smiter, good for him/her. PvE is boring anyway...anything that makes it go faster is god-sent.

Since there are plenty of parallels between Guild Wars and Magic the Gathering, The 105/55 Build is the equivalent of playing with a Deck you copied off the Internet.

The ingenuity pretty much started and stopped with the people who created and perfected it.

While I'm not quite sure I'd go so far to say it's exploiting, I do think that these builds are milking enchantments, superior runes, and monsters without enchantment removal for everything they're worth.

Cat Tabby · Aug 15, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

I dont know how anyone can take satisfaction out of using the invincimonk builds; whatever variation. It envolves no skill; it is a trick and nothing more; the worst player could pull it off if you gave him the build and basic instructions; I might even go so far as to call it a cheat. Also; they screw up the game for the rest of us; the drops in the crystal desert are awful now; and you cant go 2 metres without 10 scarabs jumping out of the sand - more anoying than a threat; Anet please help us get rid of this build.

super dooper · Aug 15, 2005, 09:41 AM // 09:41

make it so the 'cannot lose more than 5% health due to a single attack or spell blah blah' is applied before the superior runes ;p 510 or so health excluding vigor runes is only 25.5 damage, so even with 4 superior runes (not sure why you'd run that without protective bond or spirit, but an estimated 210 health), the damage would be reduced enough for 'normal use'.

then again I'm sure there is a better and more obvious solution.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 15, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

PvE is boring anyway...anything that makes it go faster is god-sent.

LOL! Go play PvP and shut up about PvE then. This, as has been repeatedly stated, is a PvE problem, not a PvP problem.

And the solution is to tweak protective bond.